Pricing Gold leaf window.

[erik winkler]

I know this question is asked too many times, but please help me in giving a good guideline for how much a gold leaf sign must cost.

Different options:
1 ) Watergilded goldleaf 50cm wide x 15cm high (Silk screen method).
2 ) Watergilded goldleaf 50cm wide x 15cm high with 3mm black outline (2 times Silk screen method or the with Vinyl mask method).
3 ) Watergilded goldleaf 100cm wide x 15cm high (Silk screen method).
4 ) Watergilded goldleaf 100cm wide x 15cm high with 3mm black outline (2 times Silk screen method or the with Vinyl mask method).

5 ) Watergilded goldleaf, with 1 hour size swirls centre, 50cm wide x 15cm high (Silk screen method).
6 ) Watergilded goldleaf, with 1 hour size swirls centre, 50cm wide x 15cm high with 3mm black outline (2 times Silk screen method or the with Vinyl mask method).
7 ) Watergilded goldleaf, with 1 hour size swirls centre, 100cm wide x 15cm high (Silk screen method).
8 ) Watergilded goldleaf, with 1 hour size swirls centre, 100cm wide x 15cm high with 3mm black outline (2 times Silk screen method or the with Vinyl mask method).

To make a good price I want to think there are no competitors, there is no recession going on in this world , just imagine it is not a job I would like to do and what would Disney pay for it ?


Thanks,
Erik

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Erik,
Someone here might take the time to figure out a price for each of your variants, but there are so many other variables. I guess using screens cuts down some on those variables, but prices are always relative to the complexity of the elements. And, you have to consider the time it takes to generate the original artwork, film positives, and screens into the pricing.

When it is all said and done, YOU will have to figure out how long it will take you times your shop rate, how much you will have in materials in the job, adding a mark up on the materials, and come up with your own figure. Some shops include their overhead and profit into their shop rate, and some add that as a percentage at the very end.

I know this is not the answer you are hoping for here, but it is THE answer. Normally, the designer and shop manager have to estimate the time and expenses for each of the steps in a project and come up with those costs in order to arrive at their quotes. Ideally, if they get the project, they'd keep actual times and materials on the project and compare them to their estimated values and eventually get a better feel for all the steps. After doing similar projects for several years, they can begin to look at a sketch of a project and equate it to a previos project with an older price and can come up with a price relatively quick.

If you were serious about trying to get someone to fill in your various quotes above, I'd suggest supplying a ficticious design, and since most of us are probably in the US, add inches into the sizes so we have a quicker idea of the sizes.

[erik winkler]

Ok Mike, I was afraid you would come with this .
I will send the design, inch sizes and the other needed information if I have it.
I am too afraid that I will do the jobs under a reasonable price, but if I would ask the one plus one is two price I think people would get an heartattack. Not that the last option bothers me, because we have to ask the price which is an honoust one for the special and time consuming work it is.
In one or two days I will post all the details.

Thanks,
Erik

[Larry White]

Perhaps you should execute one in your shop... for a sample.
Then, you could keep track of your time and materials cost. You could
also iron out any execution problems and probably be able to do it a bit
quicker the next time around.

My philosophy is, make 'em say "ouch" but still order the job....
and, if you're gonna sell your life to someone, get as much as you can.

...pick any method ya like...for, Ten Thousand Dollars!!

[Mike Jackson]

Larry's suggestion falls in line with what I am saying. No two people here have the same overhead, or the same skills, nor work at the same speed. The client will only hear the price from each and choose based on price and presentation. You can't simply shoot for the moon and expect them to pay it, but you can't do it too cheap and stay in business.

When we were sandblasting signs a lot back at the old shop, we knew pretty much what our materials were going to cost and had a pretty good idea of how to make a profit. After doing it a while, I could figure the square footage of the job to get a materials cost and then base the actual price on how long I thought it would take based on previous jobs. I often used a square foot price to figure quickly, then add for extra gold, carving, complexity, or pictorials. Glass and gold could work the same way, but there are additional variables to consider.

As always, we would supply a three tier price for the project with the most basic at the bottom, a very complex version at the top, and something in the middle. $350 - $750 - $2500...for example. Once they let you know what their budget is, then figure out how much you can do for that price. They might say their budget is $1250....SOLD.

I am pretty sure my old Three Tier Pricing article is on SignCraft's web site. You can blow a lot of time figuring prices for variants they may never choose. The game plan is to get them to divulge the budget ASAP.

[vance galliher]

I think what Mike says about budget is very important. If I don't get an answer to the..."what do you have to spend" question in the first five minutes of conversation, I'll get it in the next five. It's really painless for all concerned to say, after the initial opening of what the client has in mind, that the investment would be somewhere between $$$$ and $$$$$. And as Larry states, I just love large numbers…..they make me very happy ! Pricing this kind of work Eric is a very personal thing, and it always comes down to what do you think it’s worth.

[Roderick Treece]

I do not have set pricing for gold leaf windows. I use time ,materials,drive time.If it's a good /bad area to work in. People in your way and such.cramped windows.Here's one equation that will help.
1 leaf gold 3" x 3" =9sqin.
1 sqft 12" x 12" = 144sqin
16 sheets per sqft

I always put a 3x3 grid on the design to figuire out how much gold I will be using and mutiply by 2.25.

Roderick
www.goldleafsign.com

[erik winkler]

Ok I made some designs and hope this will be sufficient.
The work will be framed glas panels which will hang inside of the window of a shop.
I want to offer the client two options.

Glass size will be:
39,4 inches wide x 23,6 inches high.
It will be framed in a black wooden of the shelf frame; Outside sizes: 43,4 inches wide x 27,6 inches high.

Design one has acid etched insides (light yellow) and burnished outside (dark yellow) 23 krt goldleaf.
Text has a black outline.
The background will be dark brown velvet or some thin wooden panels, lightly sandlbasted to give it a western style look.

Glass design one.jpg (68.43 KiB) Viewed 20589 times

Glass design one detail.jpg (65.21 KiB) Viewed 20587 times

Design two is the same except it has glue chipped background which will be silvered and has a shine silver outline.

Glass design two.jpg (69.12 KiB) Viewed 20578 times

Glass design two detail.jpg (70.41 KiB) Viewed 20573 times

Hope this will give a good idea of what I want to offer.

[Mike Jackson]

Erik,
Please let me respectfully suggest you are going about this backwards. You are doing a lot of design work on a project you probably don't have, and may not get? Instead, I suggest you talk with your client up front and get all the specs, establish a budget, and then design towards that budget.

This is such a simple concept but it takes many people a long time to grasp it. Taking it one step farther, once you agree on a budget, ask for a deposit to cover the design time or 50% of the job, whichever you feel most comfortable with at the moment. If you can't get some sort of deposit, you are probably speaking with the wrong person or they are not sincere on the project.

Bob Parsons had a nice cartoon in SC a long time ago. It showed a customer saying "I want a nice sign" and illustrated the sign painter visualizing a sign like Larry White has been making and the client visualizing a fairly plain sign, though professionally done. Based on your original question and the two examples you just posted, I am almost 100% sure neither you or your client have a clue what the budget is. As a result, you are doing a lot of (extra) work, and much of that will never be billed.

As always, I could be wrong on my observations! My comments will hopefully help you and anyone else going through this process.

MJackson

[Larry White]

Hey Erik...

I like the 1st version better. The gilded letters will stand out
nicely against a plain background. I've painted backgrounds and
also employed fabric, wood, and a variety of other things. After
the inscription is done, you can decide what looks best for the
background.

With a chipped and silvered background, the inscription would
show up better if it was just painted. A gilded inscription against a
gilded background will get lost. The whole thing will be too reflective.

Keep that in mind when dealing with the likes of gilded glass.

-Aho!

[Roderick Treece]

Eric,
I like where Mikes going. I say do some small samples,show them to your client.If you can get them to come to your studio to see what you already have even better. Make sure they are even thinking of spending the money for that type of product before you good designing anything. When I show my glass sign sample case most people love it but when it comes down to price they want something cheaper.

Roderick
www.customglasssigns.com

[erik winkler]

Mike and Roderick,

The client did come to my studio between the first post and the design post.

As you might remember I already use your concepts you have also written in the signcraft magazines.
They are very helpfull in those day to day things, when we fellow signmakers sometimes forget due to rushhours and enthusiasm in the work we want to do.

She saw my samples at the shop yesterday and asked for a design in 3d photoshop to show to her boss who gave her the assignment to visit us for the goldleaf glasswork.
First I asked for her budget after I mentioned that pricing could be between 1500 - 5000 dollars for a glass sign.
She said she was willing to pay between 1500-2000 dollars for one sign. And when they like it they want more.
After the talk with the client she gave me her logo in eps format, I made the designs in 15 minutes, I am not afraid to invest that little time and to be honoust I made them also for you, because you requested them for a good pricing advise. If she wants a 3d rendered photoshop foreplay, she will have to pay designcosts first.

And the question still is: What can I offer her for that money? And still have a bit Disney profit.
I just want some project-money samples so I can get a little bit of an intuitive feeling for pricing goldleaf glass signs.
Because I am sure I will overdo the job because I like it too much.
So hold me back please...

Pease help.

Larry I know you have made a lot of them though the years, so if anyone knows how it will look, you will be the one to tell me. But I remember seeing some nice glue chipped silvered backgrounds and goldleaflettering inside at Dave's place.
Like the photo here:

[Roderick Treece]

Erin,
If you know the budget DO THE MATH. It not that hard to figuire out what you can afford to do for them.I'm gonna guess by the time you figuire it out you realize that using all those cool tecniques that you want to do will be more that that.
here's a photo of one I did awhile back. It's got blackline spray mask outlines and the rest was hand painted in.Matt Gold leaf lettering and antique mirroring.With the frame included it was $1880.00. If it would have had chippng and water gilding I say $2500. to 2800.00.
You could always do it for $ 2000.00 and then keep notes on time / materials and see if you made any money.

Roderick

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Erik,
Occasionally, we get clients that don't really tell us all of what they want and we have to pry it out of them little by little. Your thread has a bit of that. Ideally, you would have included the design and the budget up front, then ask how much or what you could do for that budget. It would have saved a lot of time. Seems like we have spun a lot of wheels to get to this point. But, I suspect there is core of information in this thread that should help everyone interested in either gold work or help with pricing any kind of job.

I'd say you already have all the information needed for you to figure out how much of what processes you can do. Since you got most of the artwork supplied to you, that isn't an issue other than some time converting files and colorizing a few examples. Subtract how much time you think it is going to cost you to make the number of screens and allow for materials. Subtract the materials in glass, frames, ink, gold, and so forth and eventually you should end up with a number that should reflect how many dollars you will have to apply as labor (including markup and overhead). Divide that number by your shop rate and that will tell you how many hours you can spend on the job. You can break down each step of the process in terms of hours and then treat it like a shopping list, keeping steps that fit the budget.

Someone here might take the time to figure it out for you, but that really isn't the point, is it? All of us have done a project and either made a good profit or lost our butt on it. That's just part of the learning curve and there really isn't a shortcut. Give it your best shot, keep your hours, and see how you did. If you underestimated your time, learn from it, but make sure to deliver the job you promised and sold. That's my suggestion.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson