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Liquid mask???

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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joe cieslowski
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Liquid mask???

Post by joe cieslowski »

I have just completed a Spanjer Bros. type raised letter. (I was inspired by Mike Jacksons black walnut one.. :) ) It's 8" high and about an inch thick. I want to gild it but leave about a 1/2", black reveal.

I thought the easiest way would be to dip the letter into a tray with a liquid mask....let dry, then gild. Remove the mask....Done!

I've been told that Spraylat makes a paint on mask that can be pealed off but I'm afraid I might scratch the gild. I've been told that 3M makes a mask that can be washed off with water....sounds better to me :D .

Has anyone had experience with this? Is there a better way?

I suppose I could gild first and then dip in a tray of black paint.

Any and all ideas would be helpful.....

Thanks in advance!

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Joe, I would prime and sand the piece, then paint it entirely with black paint. When dry, I would size only the top with oil size mixed in with one shot imitation gold or ivory and gild it when it is ready. If you have any gold on the black edges, just touch them up with black and you are done.

I believe you are going about this fairly simple process in a much more complicated manner. Spraylat or GripFlex is a water based mask, normally sprayed on plex faces, but it can be brushed. I just wouldn't want to try it over a finished gold area. Gold leaf is usually done LAST!

But then again, sounds like you are experimenting and trying something we wouldn't have tried. Let us know how it works out.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

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joe cieslowski
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:15 pm
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Thanks Mike,

I have already primed and just applied my second coat of black.....we are thinking alike! :)

I don't have great brush skills so I thought to get a nice even reveal, I could push the letter down into a tray of mask (with a pre set volume to establish the height of the reveal) I could quickley get a nice even line. When the mask dried I would then gild as you stated. When the gild was "set", I could then simply wash off the mask.

Except for the wash, the gild would be done last.

I'm thinking I could do quite a few letters very quickly using this method.

I'm going to call around now to see what's out there for mask.

Thanks again, Mike! :)

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Joe,
I am sure there products I don't know about, and this might one case where it highlights that point.

You mention :
I've been told that 3M makes a mask that can be washed off with water
I'd like to hear more about that material if it is available.


Back in the old days, they used to sell a product called "Masking Mud" or something similar. It was heavily mixed with glycerin and could be hand painted onto a metal sign can. The mud never dried, but you could then spray a layer of laquer over it. When the laquer dried, they just sprayed the remaining mud off with water. That was a way of getting a good white letter with a solid red background. I believe Atkinson mentions the mud recipe in his earlier book and then again in his Last and Final Book on Sign Painting...but when I heard about it, I always figured the brushed on mask would dry before spraying.

GripFlex or SprayLat actually does dry. It is a really cool product, though I haven't used it in a long time. It comes in either light blue or pink and can be cut with an X-Acto knife, then peeled. (As long as the underpaint is not porus. Needs to be solidly painted and smooth) It would work in this process, but you would need to cut around the edge of the letter carefully to hold the black reveal.

Let us all know if you find a water based mask that can be washed off afterwards.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
joe cieslowski
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:15 pm
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Well.

I've been told I'm an as thinking this mask idea will save time and that I should just practice with my brush.

OK......

Thread closed!

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Joe,
They say there are lots of ways to skin a rabbit. Your idea might work? I don't know, so go give it a try. I don't think I called you any names!

Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
joe cieslowski
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:15 pm
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Mike,

It certainly wasn't you!!!!!

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Bob Rochon
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Post by Bob Rochon »

Joe,

To aid in your brush learning skills, paint as you are in black, when you are finished with the black and want to gild, measure up the amount you want to be black, tape it off with fine line tape and use that as your mask to the edge of the size. Then before it dries peal off the mask, and voila nice clean edge for your gold.

Even pushing the letter into a solution there is no way to gaurantee it will be even or clean to be exact. not to mention you most likely will be applying more size than necessary and also encounter drips or runs. As Cam has demonstrated at mass meyhem the least amount of size between the gold and the smooth surface of the letter will yeild a much more magnificent gild.

Bob Rochon
"Some People's Kids"
Guest

Liquid Mask = Mud

Post by Guest »

I don't know who manufactured the old "Mud" but I've used it twice - both times as an experiment and both times it left a . of a mess. According to Mr. Earnest at L.A. Trade-Tech it was meant to be used on large areas like walls and backdrops for car dealers - after WW2 convex lettering was a hot item and the car dealers were having their signs redone often - so it was a time saver to brush this mask on and hose it off from the ground after the painting was done - but it didn't all wash away and it left a very ragged edge. 20 years or so since I played with it and admittedly - they were both old cans of product at the time.
Nice idea, though, if somebody has a nicer, more accurate product I'd like to try it.
.
joe cieslowski
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Mike,

I'm playing with a product called "SLIME HS"....and I thought "MUD" was funny! It's available through Napa Car Parts stores. It is designed to protect car parts from overspray.

It's safe on all painted (cured) surfaces. It's made to be sprayed and in my first trials it did leave a very thin coating when dipped. I left some in a wide, opened container for several days and it did get thicker which allowed for a thicker coating.

It's removed by first wetting it with water and let stand for a minute (to soften it) then it is washed off with warm water and car wash solution.

I haven't had a lot of time to play with it but I have already discovered several other possible aplications. I just haven't had a lot of time to play.

If you give it a try, let me know how and what you did and what were your results.

Thanks in Advance!

Joe,
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Lee Littlewood
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mud and more

Post by Lee Littlewood »

My "old guys" used mud a lot after WWII for lettering on the cans for neon signs. Lots of red letters on colored grounds - since you sprayed the red it got a long lasting coat. They said it took awhile to get the feel of it, and you had to reserve some quills just for mud 'cause it ruined them for enamel (water based, the hairs would balloon up and get soggy), but you could move like lightning since it was "just a thin grease." i don't think it ever dried hard, yoiu could spray lacquer over it and the lacquer dried fast and hard; then blow off with a hard spray of water and the lacquer would bust loose where it was over the mud. E C Matthews wrote "The Lacquer System" of signpainting, and in one of his last books had a home-made mud formula from (I think) glycerine and malted milk powder.
I went looking for something to do a similiar thing (translucent panels on plex) but, failing a spray system, wanted to roll on 1shot. Spraylat made (this was in the 70s, I dunno if they still carry it) a honey-thick material that dried and could be re-dissolved with water - it was used for dipping drill bits in to protect them in transport. It worked for my project, but the 1shot was so tough a film that I ended up in the shower with a small scrub brush, breaking the film and then brushing the paint film away as the mask dissolved. Luckily the pieces were only about 2'x3'. And I got a solid color plex sign with translucent blue letters (stippled on and then protected by the mask) inside a black outline (lettered on).
I think the dipping might work, but getting the mask off would require a lot of handling, not something you'd want to do to your fresh gild. tell us how it went...
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Lee and Joe,
Rick Sacks sent me a little bottle of original "Sign Painter's Mud". I think it is a product that disappeared because of better technology. Atkinson gives a formula in his first book for mud and again in his last and final book on sign painting. Spraylat and GripFlex (same product--one is blue and one is pink) are still available. I used to use it all the time, especially in my "hard edge" days of college art. You either roll, brush or spray on a few coats and let it dry. Then you can cut it easily with a sharp x-acto and weed the areas you want. The background needs to be clean, dry and have a hard non-porous finish.

Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
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