Backup paint on glass

[erik winkler]

Hipphipp hoereyy!
Finally I have got all my ingrediënts, they arived yesterday from Canada.
Ofcourse after work I started to try making that gold leaf sign on our window again.
Now it is up to training and skill I suppose.

[Larry White]

I'm not sure I've encountered the problems you are having. Keep in mind, if you're hoping for problem solving suggestions, be as specific as you can regarding products used and application technique. When you refer to "back-up black", I'm not sure exactly what product you're using. I have used Esoteric back-up black enamel, which is a screen printing enamel. I believe it is now available through Letterhead Sign Supply. I've thinned it with Naptha or Turpentine to a brushable consistancy. I haven't encountered the problem of it being transparent. Perhaps it's thinned too much.

Smith's Cream is not a paint thinner, it is a paint conditioner which also extends the open time of the paint. Typically, it seems to make the paint a bit thicker and doesn't really work in a brush except for blocking in backgounds etc. The main application I haved used Smith's Cream for is when executing blended shades or backgrounds. It's the wrong product for line work. If for some reason you need to extend the open time of the paint in general brush work, use a dot of linseed oil.

Also, not really knowing what the finished product is going to be, advice could become questionable. Perhaps if the outlines are tolerably transparent, they could be gone over again in a subsequent step...but I don't know.

I've never really liked water gilding up to a line that has been painted with a mask. There seems to be hard edge that the gold does want to flow down into. An edge painted with a brush seems to be a softer edge, that makes it easier to gild. I prefer gilding first, then outlining. Well, that’s me...that’s me.

Hope that helps.

-Aho!

[erik winkler]

Larry,

To begin with your last comment:
The logo I am painting is very detailed and rather small, there is no way to paint this and esspecially not me who never did that before.
So I am looking for a shortcut. I heard that brushing the outline with oooometalwool does get rid of the sharp edges.
Second step a drop of soap in the gelatine size and I think it will work.

Yes I use the back up black, but I got it from Canadian Sign supply, because it could not be shipped from America due to safety regulations...
I mixed it to a brushable consistancy with terpentine, but it looked rather transparant. A second layer is in my opnion not an option, because I want to finish these projects in one day.

I feel so stupid using the Smith's Cream, I used it during the workshop at Dave Smith's, indeed on the blending of the backgrounds.
I think the language barier and time gone by since the workshop has clouded my mind.

Extending the open time is necassary, because my brushwork is very slow. Even with a cut-out stencil.
So I will get some linseed oil... IS THIS THE BOILED LINSEED OIL OR THE NON BOILED?
DOES THIS MAKE THE PAINT STICK LESS TO THE GLASS? AND MAKES THE PAINT SOFTER?

I want my outlines and shades to be very dark so this will make the gold pop out more....

So terpentine for thinning and (boiled-)linseed oil to extend the open time.
IS THERE AN OTHER MEDIUM THAT MAKES THE (ESOTERIC) bACK-UP BLACK BRUSHABLE, WITHOUT MAKING IT SO THIN THAT IT GETS TO TRANSPARANT?

[Larry White]

...wanting to do it in one day....

Why not apply your mask, spray paint it with a couple coats of black Krylon spray paint, peel it, then gild that sucker up!

That's what I'd do... might be my first mistake...


...but I don't know.....

[erik winkler]

Are you kidding me?
I read about shopwindow projects done here in one day.
So I thought this could be done... and want to learn how to make something like this.

[Larry White]

Now on that one, I'd mask for the matte center, varnish, peel the mask, then water gild. I'd brightline the gold by hand following the edge of the varnish, and backing up over the varnish at the same time. I'd then clean the excess gold and paint the outline and shade.

Others would screen print....I like to paint with a brush. Guess I was thinking of those Wanted posters when I mentioned the Krylon.

There's several different ways of executing what's pictured above...but I don't know.

-Aho!

[Tony Segale]

William Blake always tells the truth.

Gildin a shop window in one day doesn't sound like much fun, and quick jobs always lead to problems or failures...
best to take your time and do it right. I've never gilded any window in one day, nor do I intend to.

I have gilded one salon in which I designed the lettering/logo and repeated that image in four locations of the store front windows.
The gilded centers were variegated leaf with a 1/4" black outline and a 1/4' red double line. This was the only job I used a mask and brushed in the black backup first.
Thinned to brush consistency, not transparent thin, just brushable. The only problem was the paint sets fast so the mask had to be removed quickly to avoid tearing.

The best advice I could give anyone who wants to gild glass... invest in the Gold Leaf Techniques book. I was fortunate to have a retired sign writer and gilder in my town when I began to gild.
He came into my shop which at the time was located in the same building he managed in the 'good ol days', with plenty of sign shop stories, gildin tales, etc.
He asked if I had ever laid leaf before, I told him no but I have a job lined up to gild in two weeks. He wanted to know how I was going to proceed.
I pulled out the Gold Leaf Techniques book and his face lit up with a smile as he said "That is all you need if you follow step by step. Let me know when its done and I'll go by and inspect."
I did, he did and all went well. Since then, I always refer to the book for any questions, and even after taking a fine workshop from any of the master gilders available,
Dickinson, Morton or that English Soldier.

I still paint all my outlines, no matter how fine, because I know there's always a fine razor waiting to help. (and because I haven't had a job to vertical screen yet)
Same with bright lines.

Easy, wink, easy... the first thing a gold leaf man needs to learn is to take things easy.

[Tony Segale]

Now that you have a picture... that Blake fella told you pretty good.

Me. I'm still ol'fashioned
Water gild, back up my bright lines, trim where needed.
Matte gild my centers, backup.
Paint outline and shades.

No hurry, the important thing is there's a gilded window.

[Jerry Berg]

I learned the hard way not to rush any gilding job. I use a brush for the back up after laying the gold, that's the way I like to do it. Spent too many years learning to letter and when I have used a screen it didn't feel as good, didn't look as good either. I learned to gild from the gold leaf techniques book also. I read that book over and over, had it next to me while I gilded. I say get this book Erik, can't go wrong!

[Roderick Treece]

Eric,
Tony's right,DON"T BE IN A HURRY !

If you want to use a mask you can.It will work good.You have to plan out your mask .

1) Black out lines using One Shot.You can use a little bit of One Shot hardner but that will make it kick faster.***Back up black is to fast drying and will pull up with the mask.
2( Paint the matt centers using 12 hour size.
3)Have a test piece that you start before the real one so you can start pulling off mask at about 15 min.If it seems to soon keep trying the test mask until it's ready.Maybe every 10 min.That way you know how long to wait.Once it seems like it's ready start peeling the mask off.The main thing is to make sure it's ready.Have an exacto knife and tweezers ready and when you pull off the mask don't let it go back one the glass!!!!!!
4)Let that dry for a day!!!!
5)Get yourself a bunch of Exacto knifes and break up some striaght edge razor blades into defferent sizes.With a maul stick and some magnafing glasses start cleaning up the art work until you like it.
6)Kleen the glass with a soft paper towl a glass cleaner.
7)oooo steel wool the matt center lightly
8) Gild it !!

PS Get the Gold Leaf Techniques book!! I reread it all the time.

Roderick

www.customglasssigns.com
www.antiquedmirroring.com
www.antiquemirroring.com

[erik winkler]

The first book about gilding that i bought wás Gold Leaf techniques.
I read it and read it and read it.

[Roderick Treece]

Erik,
You might be on to something here.Normally when I have used back up black it dries to fast to take the mask off cleanly.I also never wait until the next day to take the mask off.So now I will try some tests with your method.Can you please post some more close up's so I can see what it all looks like.

The only paint so far that I have found to work great over a mask and leaving it to dry completely before removing is mirror backing paint.And that's when the glass was mirrored first.

What brand of back up black did you use?

[John Studden]

This could be a days work spread over 2 trips, I could hand paint that job but would screen print it for speed. Depending on the size of the image, maybe the left portion on one screen & the right on another. Print all the black with back-up black & hardener, by the time you have cleaned the screens it would be dry enough to print the varnish centers, I like to use Nazdar 59135 gloss coating varnish with a little hardener, this is slow drying, clean up & go home.........
Next day when everything has dried, flatten the varnish to a matte finish using 0000 steel wool
clean carefully with a glass cleaner & proceed to water gild with 23kt as normal with a couple of drops of Ivory washing up liquid added to your size to pull in the Gold. This gives a nice even dead matte center & does not affect the bright line brilliance. This whole proceedure would total less than a day & would be ideal for repetative logos. After gilding just back up as normal & get the Jordan brush out for the clean up. Bob's your Uncle. I used these methods a lot at Disney, works great......& fast.

[erik winkler]

John,
What is "Ivory washing up liquid" exactly? Ofcourse it is just a washing up liquid, but what is so special about the ivory stuff?
The reason why I ask, is because we do not have that brand in Nederland and I want to get some washing up liquid with the same properties...
I tried to find it on the internet, but with no succes.
Is a little bit of normal old fashion thick gellie-like green soap also good?

[John Studden]

Ivory is just a brand name for that dish washing liquid, which is white as the name suggests, & is just a detergent, a "surfactant" as Rick liked to call it, I would think that any similar type of product found in your country would do the same trick, buy a couple & experiment.........It just pulls the Gold into the edge of printed or painted areas that consist of oil based products like the Back Up & Varnishes............

[erik winkler]

I found one and I am very pleased with it, but.... now that I made my watersize it became a little bit dim after the first gild....
I went on with the second gild and patched up some last details.

[Larry White]

Not bad...

...that's not a bad gild for a beginner...

Must be that darn Smith tip... You gild as good as a five year old!

Make ya feel good?

If you can find a detergent with no added color, its better. I add about half a drop into my pint of size. The trick is splitting the drop in half... usually end up using a whole drop, truth be told.

Now you keep on as you are, you'll be an old pro soon enough...

...and put away that heat gun... half the fun is watching it dry naturally!

-AHO!

[erik winkler]

Half a drop? that must be it!
I spilt 3 drops or more .
Well you know how it is with those youngsters always in a hurry, I love the heatgun .
The gilding and backing up (I will post the pictures tomorrow) took me from 15:00 till 20:30.
Man that's crazy!!!! Even WITH the heatgun...
Looks great but there are some points, I will mention tomorow...

[erik winkler]

Yesterday I finished the job.

Maybe I will back up everything with black to make it look clean on the rearside also.
And then I am finished. Up to the next window....

[Bobbie Rochow]

Erik, I think your work looks real nice! I am glad you posted this, because I can learn too, from wehat they are telling you. I do not have Ivory, I just used my GREEN Palmolive..oops! And your face smiling behind your pic made me smile! What a happy guy!


Had to add...My great Grandfather came from Sweden in the early 1900's & his name was Erik, spelled like yours. Erik Ecklund. Pretty neat huh?

Happy gilding!