Bakery Window questions.....

[Doug Fielder]

Hello again,

I got another Gold job in town, this time for a bakery.

Anyway, I have read in numerous places that it isn't advised to water gild the windows of restaurants or butcher shops (it was old info), due to the humidity on the glass in the winter etc.
Should I suggest oil gilding the glass instead of water gilding?
If they insist on the water gilding, will it be more durable with a varnish over the backside?
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Danny Baronian]

Doug,

go to the top of the screen and hit the search tab on the right. Type or paste in: gilding AND windows AND winter. Water gilding is durable, has been around for a long time, can be seen across the US, Canada, and the UK in every climate imaginable.

Find a window in your shop or house and do a sample now. Since your selling this type of work, it's good to practice; add to that smaller samples that can be used to show potential customers.

[Doug Fielder]

Thanks Danny,

I just did a big job recently, with matte centers etc, and it came out great. I posted it on here. viewtopic.php?t=1219

I just went and looked at the job, it will be burnished gold with black outlines on double pane glass. (Insulated)
It is a West facing window and they want the old style BLACK frame (2"+/-) and a large panel at the bottom of the window with gold lettering inside the panel.
What is the word on large black panels on modern glass? I have read that large black panels will cause glass to crack in the winter when heated up by the sun.
The kitchen is closed off to the small cafe area, so I am believing that humidity won't be an issue now.
I will post the customer's layout tomorrow.

[John Studden]

Doug, You don't say how much in pecentage the black panel will be.
I think it would be safe to do the panel to within say 3-4" from the edge of the window, if the panel was around 25% the size of the glass.
If it is a simple burnished letter, just putting down a mask for that part first, then painting the panel & pulling out the letters would be real fast.
Then just water gilding the open area with a touch of Ivory added.
Also using a dark color other than black could reduce the temperature.
Hope this helps..................

[oatis]

Doug: I'll jump in to say that it is a bit too bad that the glass is double-paned. Gold jobs set up a blurry effect on thermal pane, due to the reflectivity of the gold bouncing off the outside surface. The greatest thermal pane jobs are those where the clients will let you do the work on the back of the OUTSIDE pane, THEN send it to the insulated-glass company for assembly. No need to varnish: it's entombed, and safe from window washers. Of course, there's . to pay when the next tenant moves in! I've done two such jobs in my career. The all-time greatest example were Noel Weber's Main Street windows, done about 25 years ago in Boise.

But don't let the limitations discourage you. It will still be a great job.

And I DO second what John says about the black panel. Colored backgrounds WILL break glass, but keeping a good amount of clear border will increase the odds in your favor. An awning is the best medicine, especially on a South-facing exposure.

Oatis

[Doug Fielder]

Thank you guys, I love learning about this stuff, and with it being such a large scale job, I want it to last and look great.
Here is the layout done by a designer out in the LA area....


The black band on the bottom is about 8" high, the glass is 72" wide. The rest of the frame is 4" of black. The image in the middle is the door lettering.
Pricing this out of the 1999 Sign Writer's Pricing Guide, I come to about $5200. Does this sound right to you guys? That is just figuring out the Gold letters and logos, not including the black frame etc. The main copy is 6" gold with a black outline, and the secondary copy is 4" in the black panel.

Thank you again guys!

I spoke to Kent Smith and he suggested that I make a transparent black Japan panel first then back it up with Prussian Blue Japans. This way it looks black, but doesn't absorb the UVs as much. Also he stated that I give about a 1"-1.5" border from the window frame.
Any other input will be greatly appreciated!

[Dan Seese]

Doug,
I'm not sure exactly what a transparent black Japan Color would be - I assume just a lot of varnish mixed in with the Japan Color. The Prussian blue Japan Color is fairly transparent. Is is possible that he was recommending putting down a Prussian Blue panel (which has the appearance of being black except in direct sunlight) and then backing it up with Japan Black? I'll have to ask Kent about it. Be sure that you have your color pretty opaque before you apply the gold leaf behind it or the gold will "burn" through the areas where it overlaps onto your painted panel.
At any rate, I really like using Japan Colors with a mask. For one thing, you don't need to weed your mask right away. The Japan Colors don't "bridge" over, so you have much less chance of lifting the color that is down on the glass. I've painted Japan Color (mixed with quick rubbing varnish or Fibroseal) using mask and have weeded it a day or two later with no problem. The down side is that you do get a fairly crisp ridge between the mask and the clear glass. Especially when water-gilding, the gold simply won't go all the way to the edge in a lot of places. However, I usually back it up with some bronzing powder mixed in varnish when I'm finished and it hides it quite nicely except to the discriminating eye of fellow sign artists.
Another nice thing about using Japan Colors is that they adhere to the glass better than lettering enamels, at least that is what Rick Glawson told me and Kent as well. I think part of the reason for this is that the enamels actually form a glossy surface on the glass side of the paint film as well as on the exposed side. Japan Colors are flat and don't have this physical nature.
I've also found that, despite the controversy about whether or not to finish with a varnish outline, when I'm using a mask and Japan Color I like to do my final backup with FineGold Backup and then finish with a clear varnish outline. Since the Japan/mask combination makes a fairly thick ridge, the varnish "softens" and protects those edges. I try to make my outline fairly narrow so it will be less obtrusive. Plus, a well-loaded brush will leave a heavy deposit of varnish near the edge of the letter if you don't make it too wide.
One last thought on using the mask. Unlike Japan Colors, when you do your final backup with FineGold Backup ink, it is fast-drying and it does form a film that will bridge if you wait too long. I cut a final "weeding border" around everthing so that when I do my final backup, I can weed that portion out within a few minutes. Then I remove the remainder of the mask.
Your pricing sounds pretty right. I don't really use the Signwriters Price Guide because there are differences in geographic areas of the country etc but it is helpful at times. I guess it would depend on what types of gold treatments you are doing. In other words, if you are doing a matte center with a burnished outline, or are using different karats of gold, that will affect your price.
Congratulations on getting the job. Looks like a nice one.
Dan

[Doug Fielder]

It's coming along, I have all the copy outlined and tonight I will lay the first gild. I will post pictures tomorrow.

[Doug Fielder]

Lettering in the air conditioning is great!

Thanks everyone for the help and the finished pics will be here soon.
The customers were extremely happy and get all kinds of gawks and compliments.

[Dan Seese]

Doug,
It looks beautiful.
Will you be able to post a finished picture?
Isn't gold on glass great?

[Doug Fielder]

Finished! 5-July-05 all done. 17 books of gold (hence my other topic looking for a replacement for the brand I used).